Concerned “Nazarenes”, Direct Answers, the Articles of Faith and Rob Bell’s Dust

Manny Silva of “Reformed Nazarene” and creator of the Concerned Nazarene facebook page wrote on his blog on March 7th a “Questionnaire For Church Leadership, Part 1”. In this post Manny wants answers for the reason that various Pastors and church institutions within the Church of the Nazarene would use authors such as Henri Nouwen, Richard Foster, and Rob Bell as any kind of recourse and why our colleges like Trevecca “some Nazarene churches” use “Prayer Labyrinths”.

In his article He goes through each one and explains what he thinks is wrong with them, giving examples like saying that Rob Bell says the Bible teaches us to “believe in ourselves”-as if Bell was pushing some kind humanistic self help. What is most interesting though is how Manny ends his post as he asks leaders (Pastors, DS’s GS’s Professors ect.) to answer this question as if everyone has been dodging it. Manny concludes:

“Is the silence saying something?”

Tim Wirth posts a comment:

“Well Manny you will either get silence or non answers. I’ve been asked a lot lately about the Nazarene manual. Do you think false teachers like Brian Mclaren and Rob Bell agree with the Nazarene Manual? I can assure you their teachings are in conflict with the teachings of both the Bible and the Nazarene Manual.”

What Tim Wirth is referring to is of course my question posed to him this weekend in the comment section of my last post.

So I replied in the comment section of Manny's blog. At first Manny did not approve my comment because he said, “James, I would prefer if you kept your answers on the subject of the questions I asked- can you zero in on the merits of the questions; even if just one or two?”

Seeing that my comment was not allowed and what Manny said, I wrote in the comment section, “Manny you banned my comment when it answers something Tim brought up (a comment you allowed).” This comment where I objected to not letting my previous comment through was never allowed but Manny changed his mind and allowed my original comment to post.

What’s funny is that Manny tries to make it seem like he approved the comment all along. Manny writes, “Okay, James, Obviously, I have approved the comment. But I think you are straying from the specific questions here- but I’ll give Tim the opportunity to respond to this one- I’ll try to weigh in on it later as well during lunch.”

So my comment to Tim on Reformed Nazarene:

“Tim, you are still being silent and giving me non answers about the question on my blog. Brian Mclaren and Rob Bell are not Nazarenes. If you want to argue that they are not Christians that’s fine, but some might disagree. You might also argue that a Catholic might not be a real Christian, and others might disagree. Or you might argue that we should not read books that come from any of those people or invite them to speak and dialogue with them. But others may disagree, so this is a good discussion.

I think others would argue that there is an educational element to dialoguing with those from other traditions. Even if we disagree with them about major things, but that does not mean that we should categorically dismiss them, especially in areas where they might agree with us. But, I think your argument that we should not do these things is a fair one. If that is all you were saying I would have no problem with it.

The problem is that you are calling Pastors, Professors and leaders in our denomination “heretics” for following “a different Jesus not from the Bible” when they affirm our Articles of Faith which describes what we believe is a biblical understanding of Jesus.

You told me on my blog that the Nazarene Manuel “does affirm certain parts of scripture”, as if it doesn’t affirm other parts. But this is not true; it is not what our manual says. How can you speak for what we believe as Nazarenes if you don’t understand what it says?

Our manual says that we believe in “plenary inspiration” which we affirm that ALL of scripture is inspired by God which perfectly reveals God’s will concerning everything necessary for salvation. My blog, which I don’t think you actually took the time to read, explains this further. And it also explains how this biblical view is the point of scripture and how you and I should be able to be united in this, and not divided, as Christians and Nazarenes.

So the question I asked is this: Do you think the Church of the Nazarene as a whole affirms Jesus of the Bible? This question is related to our Articles of Faith, on whether you feel the doctrine we convey is biblical and presents the biblical Jesus?

You say I don’t follow the biblical Jesus, yet my affirmation of our Articles of Faith, which includes our statement on Scripture, reflects what we believe as the Church of the Nazarene is the Biblical Jesus. If you agree with these Nazarene Articles as biblical you CAN NOT SAY to me that I believe in a “different Jesus then the one from the Bible”.

So Tim (and Manny) it is up to you- You must decide for yourself if YOU are in or out. Stop right now calling Pastors, College Professors, and other leaders in our denomination unorthodox heretics when they affirm biblical orthodoxy as we understand them in our tradition. As a Nazarene you can not call people heretics when they affirm our shared Articles of Faith. If you think those you accuse are heretics, then you think our understanding of Christian orthodoxy which is described in our Articles of Faith is also unbiblical.

So please join us in affirming our Articles of Faith as they affirm the Biblical Jesus and stop trying to divide us from within.

PS- Manny- if you don’t allow comments from recognized church leaders, how can you say we are silent?”

Neither Tim nor Manny responded to this question in the comments. Manny has not responded anywhere and Tim gave (to borrow a term from him) a “non answer” in the comments of my last post here. You can check them out yourself.

So the comments go on with various supporters of Manny chiming in and no one daring to answer those questions, no one daring to zero in on the merits of the questions; even if just one or two?” Manny then later comments”:

“…. Is there no one out there who can answer my questions directly? There is too much deviation from them, and it seems that my guess is coming true: you cannot in any way justify with scripture, the support of any of these four situations. That is why I am not allowing all comments from you; this post was entered here for a reason, and if you can’t answer the questions specifically, then I’m not going to allow you to talk endlessly.”

“Is the silence saying something?”

What Manny presents is his list of “unanswerable” questions in an attempt to show that "no one can justify such obvious heresy with scripture or the teaching of the church of the Nazarene." His mentor Tim Wirth cheers him on saying he won’t get any answers because there are none. There are no Nazarene leaders from just the lowly Pastor all the way up to our General Superintendents who will answer what can not be answered-not anyone and not concerning any of it.

And so on his blog there is silence with no answers from ANY of these Nazarene Leaders.

“Is the silence saying something?”

Now this would be an interesting situation being presented- if it weren’t for the fact that the supposed "silence" in these matters is complete fabrication by them.

I know of many Nazarene Pastors and leaders who have answered these questions very directly. Dan Boone answered them for Manny on Manny's own blog. And I know of one Pastor who answered Manny's question on his own blog; though on this blog which Manny controls there is still only "silence".

You see, I posted a comment early this morning to answer one of Manny's unanswerable question. After all, he asked me "can you zero in on the merits of the questions; even if just one or two?” In the post itself he says he"invite(s) them all (all Nazarene Pastors) to share their knowledge of the scriptures in assisting us to get some solid, biblically sound answers to the questions below." Yet my comment (as a Pastor in the Church of the Nazarene) does not show up, because he wants people to think that no one can answer his question. and there is only "silence"

I posted my comment at 5:38am this morning (the comments are time stamped on the blog). And of course I waited to give Manny time to read the comments and approve them. I know he has a life and other things to do. I would have given him all day or as long as it took. But at 6:49am Manny approved another comment, one that agreed with him. He had read the comments and decided to leave mine in “awaiting moderation” limbo so he can say still say that his questions to every and any Nazarene leader are met only with" silence."

Now Manny may change his mind after I call him out on this and allow the comment or he may not. But here is what I said that Manny did not want you to see:

Manny, I think it is odd that you ask for “direct answers” to your questions. I don’t get much from you guys. Tim’s answer to my question when I asked him if the Nazarene Articles of Faith affirmed biblical Christianity was that “the manual is “subject to interpretation by the individual and therefore could be distorted.” If this isn’t sidestepping something out of fear of being nailed down I don’t know what is.

So its weird to me that I have to answer questions about statements others like Nouwen, Foster, and Bell, who aren’t even Nazarene are saying if what people write are so subject to interpretation that we have no ability to say if they are within biblical teaching or not.

Not only that, the Nazarene Articles of Faith are short direct statements with many scripture verses given, and as much language from those scriptures being used as possible. If the Concerned Nazarenes can’t say, even with a reasonable amount of interpretation, that these are biblical or not how can you demand that people answer for books and videos, which are not written so directly as Articles of Faith, are biblical or not?

“Manny, this is an honest and sincere question. It is very relevant to the conversation so please allow it to be posted.

Now in faith that you will post it, I am going to try and answer one of your questions as directly as I can. I am not saying you will agree with me, but I will honestly give it a shot.

Out of all the people and things you have mentioned in your article the only one I am most read up on to any decent degree is Rob Bell. I am not familiar with all his work, but a fair amount. I have only seen a few Nooma videos but I have seen the one you mention in your post about Peter walking on water.

From watching it I think that you have misunderstood and mischaracterize what Bell has said. When you say that ” he claims that Peter did not lose faith in Jesus, but lost faith in himself” you paint this as Bell giving a humanistic message that we need to “believe in ourselves”. This is not what Bell was saying.

The title was “Dust”, the idea being that we follow our “Rabbi” (who for us is the MASTER TEACHER Jesus) so closely from behind that we are covered in the dust which is drummed up from the ground as he walks.

Bell then gives us some historical background on how Rabbis choose their students, and how they only choose those whom they believe can follow them and are able to carry out their teaching. He tells us that if Peter and the rest are fishermen it means that they have been past over by every other teacher as being a possible worthy disciple (not worthy as deserving but in having the potential to follow in the teachers steps). So, when a Rabbi comes along and says follow me, it is a chance of a lifetime and so they do.

The context of Bell’s message was following our Rabbi which matches the context of the scripture he was speaking of as Peter was following his Teacher out on the water. The question is can Peter do what Jesus does? Can he do it the face of the waves and real trial? Can we?

I don’t think what Bell says in this context takes away from the primary need for us to have faith in our Teacher Jesus. After all the Rabbi in the story is still the Rabbi, and in this case the Master Rabbi and God himself in the flesh.

In this context when Bell says that Peter lost faith in himself he was saying that Peter lost faith in what his Teacher said he would be able to do (the things the Rabbi can do) by following him.

Now this idea is biblical as Jesus believes that with his help his disciples can actually walk in his teachings. John 14:12 “I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.”

This biblical idea also affirms something we believe is consistent with our Wesleyan tradition. The idea that we can actually do what Jesus does to any degree in this lifetime is a far more optimistic one then what our Calvinist brothers would say in their pessimistic view that we are doomed to be victims of our sinful nature to the day we die.

The question being asked between our two camps is what are we able to do as we follow Jesus? One camp says that God thinks we are hopelessly lost in our sinful ways until after we die. Our camp says that God thinks that through him we can do as he does and even greater things as we continue to follow him through the Holy Spirit.

We as Nazarenes believe that God thinks and believes that we are able to follow him as we follow Jesus. We believe that when Jesus says be “perfect” that we actually can in a very real way – through him. Calvinist do not believe that about THEMSELVES because they do not believe God believes it about them even though they put their faith in Jesus.

The question Bell is asking is this- does the Rabbi believe we can actually follow him? Our Wesleyan and holiness tradition answers a bold - yes we can!

Now Rob Bell is not a Nazarene and I am not even sure what tradition he is influenced the most by. My affirmation of these particular ideas of his as both biblical and within our understanding of biblical teaching from a Wesleyan perspective is not a blanket endorsement of all his teaching.

It is no more a blanket endorsement of his teaching then a Nazarene quoting a Calvinist teacher like John Piper. We as Wesleyans would disagree with many of his points as being biblical as we understand it, but that does not mean he can’t get anything right and isn’t worthy of being listened to at all as we test everything. 1 John 4:1

Manny I took my time and tried to answer your question as thoughtfully as I could. I hope you will allow this comment to be posted.

Thank you
James”

I gave one example concerning his accusation where he misrepresents what Rob Bell taught and showed what he actually said and how that particular teaching actually affirms something we believe as Nazarenes. He chose not to hear it (or let anyone else here it) he chose the "silence". Many other Nazarene Pastors, and Leaders have answered these other questions too, but those that lead the Concerned Nazarens chose not to hear those either.

Tim Wirth, and Manny Silva run the websites called “Concerned Nazarenes” and “Reformed Nazarenes”. On these sights they say they demand an explanation. But they don’t really want to hear one, they are not interested in being teachable, they only want to call leaders in our tradition heretics.

In the meantime while they claim to be “Nazarenes” refuse to give the same kind of straight answers they say they demand of others. They refuse to affirm the Nazarene Articles of Faith as reflecting Biblical Christianity.

They do this because they know that if they affirm our Articles as biblical then they can not call those leaders they attack in our denomination heretics when they also affirm our Articles of Faith as biblical. If they do then they are condemning what our denomination teaches as heresy and can no longer pretend to embrace our Nazarene tradition as part of the Christian story.

So Manny and Tim demand answers, even direct ones- yet when they get them they choose the silence.

We ask them for answers, even direct ones- and they choose to be silent.

Manny asks,

“Is the silence saying something?”

"He who has ears, let him hear."

.